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	<title>Comments on: The Israeli &#8220;Limpieza de Sangre,&#8221; or, Are You Jewish Enough to Read This?</title>
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	<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/</link>
	<description>A New Platform for the Jewish Voice</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 03:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Moshe Grussgott</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-358</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe Grussgott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 05:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-358</guid>
		<description>Ezmeister- interesting point about reform not requiring conversion for adopted kids. That actually  does show they only count kids of Jews as Jews because the assumption is those kids will be raised Jewish, and not because of blood per se. Hadn't thought of that chakira. 

Your contrast of US, a country, on the one hand with religion on the other brings up what I think is the main point of confusion on this, and that's that to be Jewish is both a nationality (with a national homeland and a political ideology) and a faith. You allude to that in your post. It's tough to balance and define both aspects.

My point about halacha being relevant to all Jews is not that all Jews believe in it, but simply that they all descend from the rabbinic Jewish tradition, it's part of their history, so it's shayach to everyone (except those few wacky karaites who remain) so it should be the default standard due to it's power as the immediate historical precedent. I completely agree we should be applying the Ger Toshav status today. That would be a good compromise to make people part of the nation without having to be Jewish. In general, I think we should encourage a mass noahide movement, and apparently the Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged this. R. Adin Steinzaltz's Sanhedrin actually accepts Ger Toshav's but the sanhedrin is not really taken seriously from what I hear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ezmeister- interesting point about reform not requiring conversion for adopted kids. That actually  does show they only count kids of Jews as Jews because the assumption is those kids will be raised Jewish, and not because of blood per se. Hadn&#8217;t thought of that chakira. </p>
<p>Your contrast of US, a country, on the one hand with religion on the other brings up what I think is the main point of confusion on this, and that&#8217;s that to be Jewish is both a nationality (with a national homeland and a political ideology) and a faith. You allude to that in your post. It&#8217;s tough to balance and define both aspects.</p>
<p>My point about halacha being relevant to all Jews is not that all Jews believe in it, but simply that they all descend from the rabbinic Jewish tradition, it&#8217;s part of their history, so it&#8217;s shayach to everyone (except those few wacky karaites who remain) so it should be the default standard due to it&#8217;s power as the immediate historical precedent. I completely agree we should be applying the Ger Toshav status today. That would be a good compromise to make people part of the nation without having to be Jewish. In general, I think we should encourage a mass noahide movement, and apparently the Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged this. R. Adin Steinzaltz&#8217;s Sanhedrin actually accepts Ger Toshav&#8217;s but the sanhedrin is not really taken seriously from what I hear.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Butler</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-351</guid>
		<description>Grussgott,

My opening line was going to be "I abhor both empathy and logic."
I agree that much of this post has an emotional underpinning to it, but I do agree that my argument is not logical.
I will stand by my guns, and regardless of the Reform movement, state that pre-Diaspora things were different. 
The reason I chose the Reform movement, was because they made a change AFTER they realized what was happening, and that a society was being created that considered themselves Jewish, because they were being raised Jewish.
For the migrant worker's child, America (for better or worse) has a solution for him.
All these other places are law-based societies, and in order to become a citizen, you have to wait, take a test, marry someone, do something.
To become part of a different religion it is much easier. In Islam, you have to repeat something three times, and in Christianity you have to become baptized. If you do either of these things, people from all over the religion will marry you and accept you. 
The Reform will allow an adoptee NOT to go through conversion, if raised Jewish. That has nothing to do with blood, that has to do with way of life. 
I will never say that the Tel Avivian eating shrimp is not Jewish, that wasn't my intention at all, I think that they are. My intention was that we need some system to include the other people as well. 

My intial question was: What is a Jew? If a person comes, and you know will not keep the mitzvot, but will live in Israel, and celebrate the holidays and fill out "Jew" in any official form, will the Orthodox way ever allow him to convert.


Matrilineal descent is doing the Conservative movement well, especially because the Orthodox don't accept them. Because their responsa about driving on Shabbat is different.  (Yes, I know who I am talking to.)

You can't bring up halakha, and say, "Everyone keeps the same thing." Halakha is fluid, and it has been for many years.


You say that I don't understand the nature of law. What has happened to the "Ger Toshav" that is in the Bible, and fills some sort of need? I agree with you, that I do not provide an answer, but the Torah was smart, it realized that other people would live with us, and cohabitate with us. In our own land. 
And raise our kids to be good Jews. There is no blood there, but there is action.
If an American goes to Spain, meets a woman, loves her, wants to marry her. She could come back with him and become a citizen of the USA.
Why? Because the US understands that you need something like this so people can love outside of their own boundaries. Yes, it has been abused, but it still is based on a good "ideal".

You want everyone to follow your particular group - and then everyone would be happy. I hate to tell you that your group is the minority. So therefore they can be more selective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grussgott,</p>
<p>My opening line was going to be &#8220;I abhor both empathy and logic.&#8221;<br />
I agree that much of this post has an emotional underpinning to it, but I do agree that my argument is not logical.<br />
I will stand by my guns, and regardless of the Reform movement, state that pre-Diaspora things were different.<br />
The reason I chose the Reform movement, was because they made a change AFTER they realized what was happening, and that a society was being created that considered themselves Jewish, because they were being raised Jewish.<br />
For the migrant worker&#8217;s child, America (for better or worse) has a solution for him.<br />
All these other places are law-based societies, and in order to become a citizen, you have to wait, take a test, marry someone, do something.<br />
To become part of a different religion it is much easier. In Islam, you have to repeat something three times, and in Christianity you have to become baptized. If you do either of these things, people from all over the religion will marry you and accept you.<br />
The Reform will allow an adoptee NOT to go through conversion, if raised Jewish. That has nothing to do with blood, that has to do with way of life.<br />
I will never say that the Tel Avivian eating shrimp is not Jewish, that wasn&#8217;t my intention at all, I think that they are. My intention was that we need some system to include the other people as well. </p>
<p>My intial question was: What is a Jew? If a person comes, and you know will not keep the mitzvot, but will live in Israel, and celebrate the holidays and fill out &#8220;Jew&#8221; in any official form, will the Orthodox way ever allow him to convert.</p>
<p>Matrilineal descent is doing the Conservative movement well, especially because the Orthodox don&#8217;t accept them. Because their responsa about driving on Shabbat is different.  (Yes, I know who I am talking to.)</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t bring up halakha, and say, &#8220;Everyone keeps the same thing.&#8221; Halakha is fluid, and it has been for many years.</p>
<p>You say that I don&#8217;t understand the nature of law. What has happened to the &#8220;Ger Toshav&#8221; that is in the Bible, and fills some sort of need? I agree with you, that I do not provide an answer, but the Torah was smart, it realized that other people would live with us, and cohabitate with us. In our own land.<br />
And raise our kids to be good Jews. There is no blood there, but there is action.<br />
If an American goes to Spain, meets a woman, loves her, wants to marry her. She could come back with him and become a citizen of the USA.<br />
Why? Because the US understands that you need something like this so people can love outside of their own boundaries. Yes, it has been abused, but it still is based on a good &#8220;ideal&#8221;.</p>
<p>You want everyone to follow your particular group - and then everyone would be happy. I hate to tell you that your group is the minority. So therefore they can be more selective.</p>
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		<title>By: Moshe Grussgott</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-350</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe Grussgott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 05:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-350</guid>
		<description>Also, I agree with Glasser (and you) that in practice the rabbinate are way too machmir in dealing with all this, I was just addressing the integrity of the halacha itself, not the politicos who overzealously enforce it in ways more strict than our ancestors did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I agree with Glasser (and you) that in practice the rabbinate are way too machmir in dealing with all this, I was just addressing the integrity of the halacha itself, not the politicos who overzealously enforce it in ways more strict than our ancestors did.</p>
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		<title>By: Moshe Grussgott</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-348</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe Grussgott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 05:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-348</guid>
		<description>Hey Ezra, how the heck you been? Drop me a line and catch up. 
I think your post is essentially a very emotional argument which fails to understand the nature of law (as opposed to ideals). Every society, including the US and all the other democracies, consider the children of citizens to be automatic citizens. We don't wait for the child to grow up and prove he'll make a good citizen first. It's based on blood, which is the only rational way to determine basic legal status. Whether someone is a GOOD American is a separate issue. A child growing up in Poland who knows the US constitution by heart and loves America would make a better American than an American kid who's a closet fascist, but the American kid is still American and the Pole is not. It's simply a legal status issue which has nothing to do with ideals. The Pole can apply to be a US citizen if he wants, just as anyone of any bloodline can convert to Judaism. And yes, we have standards for conversion which can be difficult, just as any self respecting group has standards for who they let in.

That's what makes your statement that Reform considers Judaism a way of life and not just a matter of blood an emotional platitude. Everyone agrees JudaISM (the belief system) is a way of life (and you can't deny the orthodox actually treat it as such more than reform do) but even Reform admits that blood is involved because they still say one parent must be Jewish. It's actually they who engage in inquisition because they don't consider a kid Jewish unless he engages in what they consider Jewish practices like a bar mitzva, Torah study, etc..who are they to judge what's Jewish practice? Maybe I have my own ideas of what that should be. (this leads to the interesting case of a child born to a Jewish mother but raised Christian, who the reform consider Christian and halacha considers Jewish..they're stricter than halacha!) That's why halacha has the only consistent solution. Conservative Judaism understands this and they keep matrilineal descent also in order to preserve Jewish unity. It was Reform who caused the mess by unilaterally breaking with the one inherited legal standard that all Jews could agree on.         

Historical points about how thousands of years ago it was different (even though traditional belief states that the Talmud actually reflects the original law from Sinai) or how halacha came into being may of historical interest, but are irrelevant because today; regardless how we got here, normative Judaism came to state that matrilineal descent is the norm and this became the only accepted standard, accepted by sefardim in Iran and ashkenazim in europe, until reform broke with it. The halacha is the only standard that is historically relevant to all Jews (as it's the inherited tradition of all modern Jews even if they don't keep it now) and is therefore far simpler than coming up with some new idea and expecting 15 million people to agree to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Ezra, how the heck you been? Drop me a line and catch up.<br />
I think your post is essentially a very emotional argument which fails to understand the nature of law (as opposed to ideals). Every society, including the US and all the other democracies, consider the children of citizens to be automatic citizens. We don&#8217;t wait for the child to grow up and prove he&#8217;ll make a good citizen first. It&#8217;s based on blood, which is the only rational way to determine basic legal status. Whether someone is a GOOD American is a separate issue. A child growing up in Poland who knows the US constitution by heart and loves America would make a better American than an American kid who&#8217;s a closet fascist, but the American kid is still American and the Pole is not. It&#8217;s simply a legal status issue which has nothing to do with ideals. The Pole can apply to be a US citizen if he wants, just as anyone of any bloodline can convert to Judaism. And yes, we have standards for conversion which can be difficult, just as any self respecting group has standards for who they let in.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what makes your statement that Reform considers Judaism a way of life and not just a matter of blood an emotional platitude. Everyone agrees JudaISM (the belief system) is a way of life (and you can&#8217;t deny the orthodox actually treat it as such more than reform do) but even Reform admits that blood is involved because they still say one parent must be Jewish. It&#8217;s actually they who engage in inquisition because they don&#8217;t consider a kid Jewish unless he engages in what they consider Jewish practices like a bar mitzva, Torah study, etc..who are they to judge what&#8217;s Jewish practice? Maybe I have my own ideas of what that should be. (this leads to the interesting case of a child born to a Jewish mother but raised Christian, who the reform consider Christian and halacha considers Jewish..they&#8217;re stricter than halacha!) That&#8217;s why halacha has the only consistent solution. Conservative Judaism understands this and they keep matrilineal descent also in order to preserve Jewish unity. It was Reform who caused the mess by unilaterally breaking with the one inherited legal standard that all Jews could agree on.         </p>
<p>Historical points about how thousands of years ago it was different (even though traditional belief states that the Talmud actually reflects the original law from Sinai) or how halacha came into being may of historical interest, but are irrelevant because today; regardless how we got here, normative Judaism came to state that matrilineal descent is the norm and this became the only accepted standard, accepted by sefardim in Iran and ashkenazim in europe, until reform broke with it. The halacha is the only standard that is historically relevant to all Jews (as it&#8217;s the inherited tradition of all modern Jews even if they don&#8217;t keep it now) and is therefore far simpler than coming up with some new idea and expecting 15 million people to agree to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Butler</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:32:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-344</guid>
		<description>Moshe,
Thank you for your kind words, but I think that one sentence of yours shows that you are missing the boat (ever so slightly).
"[A]ny number of communal problems could be solved in the Jewish community."
We are no longer *just* a community. We are a country. These issues are not communal. There is no other address to go to if someone wants to get married, for instance, or to convert. 
Over the last two months I have witnessed firsthand how many problems there are for righteous individuals who want to do both of those things.
It is scary. If I would live in America, I would be able to choose whomever I would want, or not choose anyone at all. That is not an option here in Israel. 
90% of halakhic literature was written in the Diaspora or in "communal Judaism", responding to those specific needs. We cannot afford to use swiping terms like "am haarets" anymore, because they need the religious rites as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moshe,<br />
Thank you for your kind words, but I think that one sentence of yours shows that you are missing the boat (ever so slightly).<br />
&#8220;[A]ny number of communal problems could be solved in the Jewish community.&#8221;<br />
We are no longer *just* a community. We are a country. These issues are not communal. There is no other address to go to if someone wants to get married, for instance, or to convert.<br />
Over the last two months I have witnessed firsthand how many problems there are for righteous individuals who want to do both of those things.<br />
It is scary. If I would live in America, I would be able to choose whomever I would want, or not choose anyone at all. That is not an option here in Israel.<br />
90% of halakhic literature was written in the Diaspora or in &#8220;communal Judaism&#8221;, responding to those specific needs. We cannot afford to use swiping terms like &#8220;am haarets&#8221; anymore, because they need the religious rites as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Moshe Glasser</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-343</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe Glasser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-343</guid>
		<description>I agree with a lot of your ideas in principle, Ezra, but we have a far bigger issue at stake. This kind of thing could be addressed with far better - or indeed any - effectiveness if we had a real rabbinic organization that felt like they could actually do what a rabbinic organization and leadership is supposed to do, any number of communal problems could be solved in the Jewish community. Instead, we insist on hog-tying ourselves with levels of restrictions that no generation previous felt was necessary. All this out of fear of being too liberal, or taking power that we can't allow ourselves to have over the process of religion. However, in the past, we never had a problem with that kind of decision-making. A lot of our religious issues might be solved (or at least addressed) if our leaders would stop being so squeamish about using the power they are given in the Torah to make decisions, instead of piling on level after level of restriction and "fences," all in the name of protecting us from ourselves. Of course, to do that, we would also have to get over our terror of the other aspects of our religion - the Reform, the Conservative, and the other groups that we so fear. Are we ready for that? We really need to be. Otherwise, we will be doomed to endure the problems that you have discussed above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with a lot of your ideas in principle, Ezra, but we have a far bigger issue at stake. This kind of thing could be addressed with far better - or indeed any - effectiveness if we had a real rabbinic organization that felt like they could actually do what a rabbinic organization and leadership is supposed to do, any number of communal problems could be solved in the Jewish community. Instead, we insist on hog-tying ourselves with levels of restrictions that no generation previous felt was necessary. All this out of fear of being too liberal, or taking power that we can&#8217;t allow ourselves to have over the process of religion. However, in the past, we never had a problem with that kind of decision-making. A lot of our religious issues might be solved (or at least addressed) if our leaders would stop being so squeamish about using the power they are given in the Torah to make decisions, instead of piling on level after level of restriction and &#8220;fences,&#8221; all in the name of protecting us from ourselves. Of course, to do that, we would also have to get over our terror of the other aspects of our religion - the Reform, the Conservative, and the other groups that we so fear. Are we ready for that? We really need to be. Otherwise, we will be doomed to endure the problems that you have discussed above.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Butler</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-342</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-342</guid>
		<description>I am not advocating a bipartisan Jewish movement.

I am advocating a (virtually impossible) country that can look to the bible for its outlook towards outsiders. 

Unless Israel somehow does something that is good for everyone, no one will be able to marry in Israel in another generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not advocating a bipartisan Jewish movement.</p>
<p>I am advocating a (virtually impossible) country that can look to the bible for its outlook towards outsiders. </p>
<p>Unless Israel somehow does something that is good for everyone, no one will be able to marry in Israel in another generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Zechariah Mehler</title>
		<link>http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-341</link>
		<dc:creator>Zechariah Mehler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jewneric.com/the-israeli-limpieza-de-sangre-alternatively-are-you-jewish-enough-to-read-this/2008/03/04/#comment-341</guid>
		<description>A  bipartisan Jewish movement would be great  but lets face it Jewish Organizations that share the same ideals don't work well together let alone Jewish Organizations that differ in religious dogma. 
It's similar to what Jon Stewart says in regards to politics. There is a bell curve with the leftists on one side and the right wingers on the other. All of us moderate people are in the middle. Neither extreme has the ability to see those of us in the middle they only see the opposite side of the bell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A  bipartisan Jewish movement would be great  but lets face it Jewish Organizations that share the same ideals don&#8217;t work well together let alone Jewish Organizations that differ in religious dogma.<br />
It&#8217;s similar to what Jon Stewart says in regards to politics. There is a bell curve with the leftists on one side and the right wingers on the other. All of us moderate people are in the middle. Neither extreme has the ability to see those of us in the middle they only see the opposite side of the bell.</p>
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