Comments on: Trembling

By: Seth Jacobson

Seth Jacobson — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:24:09 +0000

When I was in high school, the principal used to start the opening assembly every year with the same story:

A man goes to his rabbi and says, “Rebi, I don’t know what to do. I happen to know that coworker of mine, a Frum Yid, is embezzling money from the company.”

The rabbi looks at the man curiously, and says, “I don’t understand.”

The man replies, “Well, Rebi, this Frum Yid is taking money from the company that doesn’t belong to him.”

The rabbi looks at the man, still confused, and says, “I don’t understand.”

The man, stumbling a bit, says, “Well, you see Rebbi, this man is like taking money. He’s stealing.”

The rabbi says, “I don’t understand.”

The man, now a bit frustrated says, “Rebi, this man who is stealing is Frum! He’s Shomer Shabbos, Shomer Kashrus, Davens 3 times a day with a Minyan, wears Tefillin, has a Chavrusa. He’s Mamish a Frum Yid. Don’t I have an obligation to protect him?”

The rabbi, sympathetically, responds to the man, “I don’t understand. He’s a Ganav. Who says he’s Frum?!”

{For anyone out there who can’t follow the story b/c of all the weird Yiddish/Hebrew words:
Rebi=original Hebrew of Rabbi=my master/my teacher
Frum Yid=pious/religious Jew
Shomer Shabbos=Sabbath observant
Shomer Kashrus=observes Jewish dietary laws
Davens=prays
Minyan=proper quorum for communal prayer
Tefillin=Phylacteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylacteries)
Chavrusa=Torah/Talmud study partner
Mamish=Literally (emphatic)
Ganav=Thief}

Just for the record, I believe that my principal (and the rabbi in the story) would agree that, in fact, there is an obligation to protect one’s fellow, Frum or not, even Jewish or not, from spurious allegations.

By: Ahron Lerman

Ahron Lerman — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:07:26 +0000

Orthodox shmorthodox. We’re all Jewish. Let’s get over the labels already. There are so many variables for observance that’s it’s a waste of time and energy to define just exactly what combination makes you orthodox or whatever else. Maybe you put on tefilin daily and yet are involved in a homosexual relationship. Maybe you don’t keep strict kosher, yet are careful and mindful in saying a blessing for every little thing you put in your mouth. Our rabbis are too concerned with alienating the big donors of their congregation to take any serious, unbiased stance on an issue. The fact is, Judaism tells us to love for the sake of love and to practice peace and understanding to all our neighbors, Jewish or not, homosexual or not. The Big Three labels (Ortho, Conservation, Reform) are slowly being eroded and becoming obsolete as people learn to identify more with their Jewish identity and with brotherhood and sisterhood than anything else.
“One love, one heart, let’s get together and be alright.”
“Shema Israel, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echad.”

By: Zechariah Mehler

Zechariah Mehler — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:29:58 +0000

I think the most infuriating thing is when you have prominent members of a community who are sleazy business men. People who do all the affectations of Orthodoxy but when it comes to money steal, cheat and take advantage of others. There are a ton of these people and they are given respect by synagogues and Jewish organizations regardless of their behavior.
If we are debating the issue of the orthodox excepting homosexuals, it’s pretty simple, they wont.
If we are talking about why the orthodox don’t except homosexuals but are willing to except people with equally if not greater anti halachic behavior that is a whole different post.

By: Benji Rosenzweig

Benji Rosenzweig — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:16:07 +0000

The Torah openly prohibits: Lashon Horah, Motzie Shem’Rah, Richilus, (I am just getting started) Chillul Shabat, Chillul Hashem, Masturbation, and many other things that I bet you cannot claim to have NEVER done. So unless you are willing to excommunicate yourself from the “orthodox” community, I would tone it down a little.

By: LubabNoMore

LubabNoMore — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:01:16 +0000

As long as the Torah outright prohibits gay male sex the Orthodox community will have a very hard time embracing openly homosexual couples.

By: Dave Weinberg

Dave Weinberg — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:48:50 +0000

Strong words, Benji.

I am into “let be and let live”, but I am not sure that the community and its views are not important at all. we are still young and our generation has not yet found its place inside of the greater jewish community (orthodox or not). Things will change and I think that the next decade or two will open new doors of understanding and close more doors of fear and mis-education. Only time will tell.

By: Benji Rosenzweig

Benji Rosenzweig — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:07:14 +0000

Wow,
I think we have opened up a Pandora’s Box of strong beliefs, miss-education, sincere desire to know, and inability to ever know what you can’t experience. That being said I think a few things should be mentioned.
First of all, I don’t think that we should ever love someone for the hope that they will one day “snap out of it” or “see our way of thinking” that is true for accepting Homosexuals or people who don’t keep Shabbat. The Torah states clearly, “V’ahavta L’ireacha K’amocha” there is no caveat about loving them for the purpose of reforming. In fact that is almost the mantra of the Christian church.
Secondly, the shades of Grey relative to Shabbat, are also there with Homosexuality. First of all, there are Homosexuals and Bi-sexuals. You could argue that a homosexual doesn’t have the choice of being with a woman, where a Bi-sexual has the choice to be with a woman; therefore he should choose to not be with a man. Also in the torah the prohibition of homosexuality is clear on what act is not allowed, I will skip the graphics, but there is a lot to be done without committing an actual sin ( ask any yeshiva guy trying to convince a Bais Yaakov girl to not be shomer negiah, without having sex)
Third, the truth of the matter is that we don’t know what someone goes through dealing with sexual preferences that are “not normal” I saw a special on TV the other night with a couple were one was lean an muscular and the other was 450lbs, they call them Chubby Chasers, nothing wrong with it, but I am not buying the calendar. There are people who are into masochisms, feet, role playing, or dwarfs (Sorry I had to throw in a little something there) all of which are OK. Not necessarily for me or for you. But everyone is different. I think that as long as two (or 3) consenting adults are in the privacy of their own home, and not hurting anyone. Bless’em and let’em live, one of the things that makes humans different from animals is our ability to enjoy sex.
Accepting people in our community based on sex should not be part of the equation (as long as they are consenting adults)

By: Moshe Glasser

Moshe Glasser — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:04:40 +0000

Rav Schachter, in an “ask the rabbi” session at the Mount Sinai shul, said pretty much what you are saying, Marc. Specifically, he advocated allowing homosexual members to remain a part of the shul and a part of the community because driving them out makes it more likely that they will leave Judaism entirely. If we consider homosexuality to be a sin as so many other things are sins, like being deceptive in business or some of the examples you mentioned above, like Shomer Negiah or lapses in Kashrut, then we might see that person as someone to be embraced in the hopes that they will remain as religious as they are now at worst, and may come back more fully at best.
Another friend of mine recently mentioned that we will soon need to re-evaluate how we relate to the homosexual members of Orthodoxy as a community. I replied that we already have a good system - “Yisrael, Af Al Pi Shachata, Yisrael Hu” - “A Jew, though he sin, remains a Jew.” We do not reject people from the community because of sin. Rather, we embrace them in the hope of their coming back to us. This is not condescending or pitying - it is hopeful.

By: Zechariah Mehler

Zechariah Mehler — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 01:27:03 +0000

Usually when the orthodox interact with Jews who are non-orthodox they tend to treat them like the Simple Son from the Hagada. They simply don’t know any better and therefore issues like Shabbat and kosher though they still apply to them are not looked at as so egregiously unobserved. However once orthodox Jews who cease to practice orthodoxy such as the observance of Sabbath and Kashrus are not given the same clemency. I am very left wing in my opinion about what people do for their personal observances but still I believe if you don’t keep the big two (Shabbat and Kashrus) you are simply not Orthodox period. This doesn’t mean you should be shunned or excommunicated but simply that people need to deal with the reality of observance if you don’t observe the directives of Halachic law you can’t be orthodox. Now I’ll admit there are very grey areas like people who are not shomer negiah but remain celibate or the new groups of “egalitarian orthodox. These are all issues that test the boundaries of Halachic Judaism. Different people stand on different sides of the fence on these topics.
Homosexuality is much more difficult because there is no gray area. The bottom line is that Homosexuality (the act, not the being) is strictly forbidden according to the Torah and thus is one of those deal breakers like Shabbat and Kashrus. It’s even more difficult because Gay is not a lifestyle choice like Shabbat and Kashrus; it is something thrust upon people.
No mitzvah is ever overlooked so there is no reason these “gay orthodox” should stop observing other mitzvoth and they should definitely not be treated with disrespect but rather with compassion for the tremendous struggle they must deal with. However in the same way that the more traditionalists orthodox should not look to force their beliefs on others it is wrong for us to force acceptance onto them.